Anyone have the issue where "Room Setup" has to be done repeatedly?

edited July 28 in Developers
It appears that the Nolo software corrupts the SteamVR Chaperone configuration in some cases requiring the "Room Setup" to be done again. It happens to me quite often. Is this a common problem?

https://github.com/NOLOVR/NOLO-Windows-SDK/issues/9

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Comments

  • This is a major bug in Nolo software, which completely destroys the quality of the user experience. It also highlights an approach with Nolo software which is very disturbing: it is completely forbidden to modify internal SteamVR files, and any software that does that will have all sorts of problems that will drive the user crazy (and will of course break SteamVR). It makes me very sad that LYRobotix does not value (or even seem to understand) the concept of "quality of user experience".
  • edited July 28
    That has never happened to me. However I quickly switched to using WalkinVR to be able to play 360 roomscale games better with NOLO and it creates its own roomscale data (since technically you can go anywhere by moving with the controller).

    I wouldn't attack NOLO @iVRy there are plenty of programs that modify SteamVR (the Rift has software to copy its guardian, openVR advanced tools can edit guardian too).

    I don't know *why* NOLO needs to edit those files but I am sure they had a reason.
  • @bigelowed This is the reason: "for fresh users the Steam VR room setting is too complex, so I modified the chaperone_info.vrchap to simple the room setting process".

    Great, but corrupt the chaperone_info.vrchap file and you irritate your users immensely. Speaking to a brick wall trying to get anyone to understand "quality of experience" - it's the sum total of everything (in this case, the hardware, the software, the way you use it, the amount of irritation/joy using it results in etc.), so the weakest part determines the quality. The Nolo software by far destroys the quality of this particular experience. It's bad.
  • Other people who mess with the files don't put out a poorly tracked product. Oculus/OpenVR working on it is far different than the team (I'm making an assumption, it's probably just one guy...) that NOLO has doing software.

    Tracking is still finicky at best, there's no in menu way to switch between 360/180 tracking, the room setup bug is a nonstop annoyance of having to reset your position all the time, the controllers shift over time so they can end up offset from your head, and most importantly the whole thing shakes/vibrates non stop. It's almost literally impossible to get a stable image if you set it down on something. Heck if you use the "turnaround" function suddenly the controllers are on a different axis then your body and that bug has been there since the beginning.

    Beyond all that, it's been weeks since any sort of update. It's pretty obvious that PCVR isn't their focus. They said it like 30 times, but they are basically putting in the bare minimum effort and leaving us out to hang until someone comes along and does a better job. It's not like they even stand a chance in the mobile market with Oculus and now even HTC (Asian markets only for HTC) releasing their own $200 all-in-one competitors. I've had 2 out of the 3 people I've demo'ed it to express interest in getting on for PCVR up until I explained that it barely worked and they just got lucky to experience it on a good day.
  • edited July 28
    Also the room set up is hilariously simple for that to be the reason. Its like three steps explained you in small words with large point fonts. You can almost just hammer the forward key. Do they think every customer they have is brain dead or in kindergarten?
    Just setting up RiftCat to get the whole thing working is a comparatively "huge" technical barrier and people are doing that without trouble. I'd much rather have working software then his "fix" to make it simple, a.k.a. break everything. Is there an easy to way to complain to them because it sounds like support doesn't answer?

    It sounds like the code work of one person who has maybe a year or two of school and then a lot of experience brute forcing their way through code they don't fully understand. It's the least professional software I've seen come out of a company and has a similar interface/functionality to most freeware.
  • @Naturally_Nick They really want to make it work, and I have great respect for their developer(s), and the effort they're making but they're just not capable of making a high enough quality product *for me*. YMMV.

    I've tried endlessly to help them improve it, but without the understanding of what quality means and how fragile a perception it is, I really don't see them being able to compete with companies that do get it (before we even get into price and relative value). Maybe it's a western market thing, who knows? I wish them all the luck and hope they can pull out of this nosedive, but I'm done here...

  • @Naturally_Nick Apparently "Room Setup" is difficult/impossible to do in Chinese that is why they needed to do it. They offered me an SDK that removes the need for their PC software. It doesn't work. I give up.
  • @iVRy agree with you. The ceiling solution is fine for high ceiling but bad for low ceiling. Controllers position drift make me cannot play long time. Need to do a lot of calibration before play. The experience of nolo is not good and the improvement is quite slow. Actually I don't want to give up but I am looking for other device to replace nolo. 
  • edited July 29
    @iVRy @Naturally_Nick ;
    Some of the issues here I have not had nearly as bad as described, I mean sure, I've had some issues at times, but usually I can re-calibrate while running to fix them (eg: turn head a bit off-center then press the double tap bottom button on each controller to fix them back to center).

    As much as it's not cheap, I highly recommend WalkinVR for anyone seriously expecting to play desktop VR with NOLO. It makes the 180 degree turn unused (as you can just free rotate using a mapped button, I usually map grip) and lets you stand in one place to move with a controller (then just lean in/out, do small body movements when you need to).

    The NOLO VR is a single base station and cheap alternative to Desktop VR. Granted, the software could be better / open source, but I am actually very happy with it as it is right now, and as long as the team eventually gets around to ironing out more of the bugs it'll get better.

    NOLO VR and its parent Lyrobotix appear to be companies founded by China's initiative to fund students to come back to China and start a company. It seems there was some students from University of Southern California alongside Lisa Zhao from Columbia Law School that came together to make the product: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jordyndahl/2016/05/03/chinese-government-luring-sea-turtles-home-to-launch-startups/2/#40474943246b

    After all, Kickstarter is a place for any group of people to pitch their ideas and make them happen, and what NOLO has delivered already is almost exactly what they promised (still waiting on wireless and Unreal Engine 4 support), so it's pretty impressive for a Kickstarter to do that and *almost* stay perfectly on time too.

    I think it's fair to say NOLO needs improvement, but I wouldn't be too hard on them for struggling to keep up with the massive demands that grew around their product.

    Slightly worrying though is that once the NOLO had shipped it seems some of the staff might have left the company/returned to their studies abroad, as appears to be the case here of the CEO: https://www.linkedin.com/in/赵曦-xi-lisa-zhao-29106528/

  • I think they delivered some great hardware, but I'm also not here to become best friends with my manufacturer. I just wanted a working product and right now, we don't have that. Mainly because while they did great on the hardware side, they're dropping the ball on the software side. Whatever excuse doesn't really matter in the scheme of things: KS, college students, first time, whatever.  They had an agreement (working SteamVR) with the customers and aren't fulfilling their end properly

    Also worth noting that as far as I know the wireless implementation was never going to be handled by the NOLO devs. They either took our money and then asked RiftCat to do the heavy lifting or worked out some sort of deal where they paid RiftCat for it. Either way, it's not going to be them delivering it.
  • edited July 30
    @Naturally_Nick ;

    The software side is not perfect, but for me it works well enough, I really don't see it as dropping the ball just a few issues to iron out/specific cases of bugs (every software has user-specific bugs that may or may not be fixed, from giants like Microsoft to the tiny groups like NOLO).

    They absolutely do have working SteamVR, it connects and SteamVR recognizes it. I disagree with your statement that they have not fulfilled their end of the deal.

    Also yes, you're right, the wireless is being mostly done by RiftCat team, but they are working together with them to provide the data and optimize tailored to their hardware.

    A stretch goal is not "taking the extra money", that extra Kickstarter money was probably due to increased numbers of backers and so was raised in exchange for more rewards (which ended up costing NOLO a bit MORE than they predicted to make, due to price increases in the materials and probably also shipping).

    Overall I don't see a reason to have anger against NOLO here. They're more like a lesser known Oculus (and MUCH less funded, Rift raised $2.4M vs NOLO $230K???) before being bought by Facebook, so it's silly to pretend they have the infinite resources of a giant corporation.

    We need to support and encourage right now if we want improvement, otherwise why would they keep developing it?


    Edit: Continuing on with the math on the NOLO Kickstarter, dividing the $231,491 (which is probably too high, since Kickstarter takes a %) by 1,683 backers is an average of $137.55, less than the predicted MSRP of one NOLO VR, and almost half of the actual release cost of one NOLO VR.

    Granted, it's NOLO team that should have added some buffers to the cost to cover unexpected hiccups, but considering the situation they still have done surprisingly well for a Kickstarter campaign.
  • edited July 31
    i just use advance steam vr https://github.com/matzman666/OpenVR-AdvancedSettings

    go into fix floor put one controller on the ground and stand up straight hit fix button

  • edited August 1
    They delivered on the hardware side of things, no arguments there. But I don't understand your fervent defense of the software. Maybe if they made it feel like they had a competent handle on things, but its like watching a bunch of college kids take baby steps into the world of marketing. Only we're the casualties of their learning experience.

    If I sold you a car and it broke down 50% of the time you drove it to work, you wouldn't call that a finished product. As it stands the tracking is buggy and inaccurate. Half the time it breaks down completely after any lengthy (10-15 minutes) use.
    And in case you haven't been following the RiftCat development much, the last thing I saw was that they had basically washed their hands of NOLO and decided to write their own drivers for it from scratch. (because the current one is entirely unsatisfactory). They also made a mention of how it's hard to debug the problems with the NOLO driver without being able to see the source code.

    It's a pretty simple leap of logic from there to see that the NOLO team probably isn't getting into contact with RiftCat, at least not adequately. Otherwise they'd just look at the drivers right? This also falls in line with what we know of Lisa leaving (she was their CEO/company face right?) and the huge drop-off in communication that came with it. Hence my complaint about the stretch goal. It was more a comment of a "I hope they're paying whoever is actually cleaning up after them because they sure aren't delivering on it."

    Product is good, support is awful. Sounds like a typical Chinese company and not something we need to go crazy defending. Have you heard the HTC support horror stories?

    P.S. We don't need them to succeed to support the driver. Others will do it as evidenced by RiftCat and the user IVRy. There are also standalone headsets rumored in the $200-$400 range that will probably have their own tracking systems/motion controllers/Leap Motion-equivalent built in. It's unlikely NOLO will ever be supported on those as more than a hack or novelty item. So if it can't even deliver a satisfactory SteamVR performance it's going to be crushed out of its already small niche.
  • edited August 1
    @Naturally_Nick I really dont understand how you had an impression that the NOLO was going to be a premium/ killer product. In every single video demo they showed it is amateur.

    I am not defending NOLO foolishly, i am just pointing out that as a Kickstarter project it is well ahead of the curve. The fact its even in our hands without a year delay is almost a miracle and I expect it will get better.

    Most of VR software feels like early access, I am not surprised NOLOs feels like "earlier" acess and think of it like a developer device more than a consumer one right now, especially for desktop VR


  • edited August 1
    Same chicken and egg problem as the rest of the VR hardware product market: with enough users the momentum will create content/support, but without content/support how do you get enough users? The first hurdle to get over towards that is bending over backwards to court/support developers, and not burning the goodwill of any developers you may be lucky enough to interest. Without developers interested in your product, it doesn't matter how good it is, there will be no content. LYRobotix have kinda got this, they realise courting developers is the key, they just don't really know how (or are able) to keep goodwill. Sending your main/only developer away for 2 weeks of "business travel" and ignoring developer queries for that time is not the way to do it, we have limited time and patience. Management issues obviously, language issues definitely, can't speak for what internal situations cause poor perception, just that it is there, and nothing (of note) is being done to correct that.

    The way to right this (possibly) sinking ship is to give full details on how to bypass the need for LYRobotix to provide any software/drivers at all. Anyone (seriously) working with this hardware has skills that (seem to) surpass anyone working at LYRobotix. Smart company realises that they can get their work done for them for free and expand their product into markets that they either can't see yet or don't have the inhouse skills to address. Silly company thinks that obfusticating/encrypting their protocols protects them from competition in some way, but really hurts only their users, and anyone wanting to copy them or jump on their bandwagon isn't deterred by that at all anyway. Company that realises some/all of this hires skilled developers to create their software if they're not succeeding inhouse. Might cost a bit of cash up front, but better than losing everything, because make no mistakes this (and every) market is not forgiving and patient, waiting for some company to correct its fumbles, it simply moves on to the next guy showing something interesting...

  • @iVRy good points, I agree NOLO gains nothing valuable by protecting their protocols
  • @bigelowed

    That's the thing. I had incredibly low expectations and they're failing to meet those. I'm not looking for a Vive killer. Just a program that doesn't end up with my hands chilling 5 feet away from head or on a different rotational axis, a.k.a. totally unusable. And I'm not complaining about the system itself. I think the hardware is fine, excellent even for $99, if only "meh" for $200. I'm complaining about the absolutely terrible support after the fact. This "driver" is objectively bad. The customer support is so-so. They are ignoring customer concerns to push their own ideas of 'easy' because they think they know better. This is also bad. They have no idea what their customer wants. They weren't even going to do SteamVR until they realized they couldn't sell their mobile product without it. As far as I know there are maybe 2-3 mobile app for NOLO on the market? One of which made by NOLO and the other by RiftCat interns... SteamVR is the only value this thing has and they need be able to get it right. Particularly because they're still taking preorders since I can't imagine anyone buying it as this point and legitimately being satisfied. They've had 4 months or so to work on it and nothing great has come out of it.

    I'm not even interested in 0.8.xxxx because I have little faith that it won't break some other part of my SteamVR. Honestly they still don't have a way to swap between 360 and 180 within the menu, dropping the ball is putting it lightly. Even if I was willing to wait until 2020, I don't think they'd be able to deliver a satisfactory experience. All this cool hardware is worthless without the software to support it.

    However none of this has to do with the hardware, but all with NOLO's action as a company.

    IVRy is right. The NOLO software developers aren't particularly skilled and are holding up development. NOLO as a company is doing nothing about this. This is my problem. Open sourcing might save their product. I have 2-3 people that'd be interested in buying it if it ever works well and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    I guess my expectations extend beyond being happy that they didn't delay the product by a year. They're slapping me in the face, but thank god they aren't aiming below the belt too?

  • The issues you're having are not what everyone else is having though. There's plenty of footage of people having a fine time with NOLO. Being mad at them for not being able to fix the issues of a few very vocal people is silly for a company so small.


    I agree they should open source all of it but if they don't that's their choice. I would still buy NOLO if the Rift wasnt on sale even with the issues some people are having.
  • edited August 2
    @NaturallyNick ; "end up with my hands chilling 5 feet away from head or on a different rotational axis" is the result of two different drivers trying to control the Nolo hardware at the same time, the one being whatever driver you're trying to use and the other being the Nolo OSVR driver. Look at my "BETA" post for details on how to disable the Nolo driver. I'm surprised this issue isn't more commonly reported.

    Due to a peculiarity of SteamVR, this issue will only happen with drivers whose name comes alphabetically before "nolo".
  • You wouldn't even know what issues I'm having... I've mentioned one thing (the hands and head getting becoming un-centered) and you've jumped on it as being the entirety of my problem. Conveniently failing to ignore all of the valid points I'd attempted to discuss before about NOLO's business decisions and support.

    Something like 80% of the forum posts are problems; that's an insane number even considering that people with trouble are more likely to complain. It seems pretty obvious that the bulk of people are either having trouble or just not using it until its fixed like I was.

    I looked for some gameplay videos of NOLO and there are (generously) 5-8 people putting them up.  Most of them only a couple minutes in length... I'd call that showing the future potential of NOLO and not happily playing. Also, they aren't going to post the videos where they spend 30 minutes fussing with the driver/settings to get it to work.

    This seems to be going no where since your digging your heels in and refusing to admit they have problems. Are you still developing that NOLO app you were talking about? If you're already invested, the defense would make a lot of sense. Either way, best of luck to you. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm going to check out iVRy's option or RIftCat's (if they ever make it), or literally anything but the NOLO driver for "windows." Not even "Windows," a minor thing, but so perfectly descriptive of their approach towards their software: "Cut every corner."

    @iVRy Thanks for the help. I'll check out the post and see if I can apply it to my situation. I'm on Android though so I'm not sure I can use your app.
  • Well, I don't think someone is going to find their way onto here just to post "I kinda liked my NOLO! it worked okay!" just yet, other than to share videos of gameplay, so it's unfair to assume that NOLO is having issues for all of its users just because quite a few people here are posting their issues and looking for help/answers.

    My point was: NOLO may have problems, but they are issues that every early adopter faces in one way or another, especially with the small studio / Kickstarter type projects. If everyone ran the same PC hardware and software exactly (like game consoles) a lot of the issues would probably be solved by now.

    I'm not saying NOLO can stay this way/are perfect as they are, but they are showing actually a great deal of progress despite some of the flaws out the door.

    Yes, I'm still developing apps for NOLO on mobile, and I talk sometimes with the developer of WalkinVR and Driver4VR who is also working to make some great accessibility options for devices just like the NOLO.

    I think you raise a fair point there: You're seeing NOLO from a consumer perspective, when I think it's really called a "Pre-Order" round for a reason: It's at a stage where it's meant for developers first, like a DK1 and DK2 *can* be used to play games, but are now outdated in both software and hardware (although confusingly yes they do call the NOLO a model CV1)

    Anyway, I think I agree with much more of what you say than it seems, but I am saying have some hope for them as it's still very early days. The things NOLO demonstrates in their videos have all worked for me so far, so I don't believe they have lied about their product. It just needs a heavy layer of polish and optimizing to be truly ready for consumers / mass market audiences.

    I do hope your issues are able to be resolved, unfortunately iVRy's app isn't out on Android yet :(
  • edited August 3
    @Naturally_Nick

    Are you using a OSVR HDK2 by any chance? This might help if so: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NOLOVR/permalink/1798514487127049/


  • I think we can agree about the potential of their product and I definitely don't think they've lied per se. I think Hanlon's Razor would come into play here.

    Thanks for taking a look around, I'm just using the a "standard" Android and GearVR set up though. Luckily some other driver options seem like they're almost ready (for testing anyways) so we shouldn't be waiting too much longer.

  • They totally lied 150%, the potential of their product isnt even 0 , its -150 if anything.

    They lied to me, they took my money, they sent me something that doesnt work, and now they wont give me a refund.

    DONT BUY THIS ITS A SCAM.
  • Well, I don't think someone is going to find their way onto here just to post "I kinda liked my NOLO! it worked okay!"  I CAN AGREE WITH THIS 500% because NOBODY HAS IT WORKING. THE ONLY PEOPLE WITH GAMEPLAY ARE USING A DIFFERENT VR SYSTEM AND PRETENDING ITS NOLOVR TO SELL THIS....

    it is a SCAM
  • Works for me @lestysone but sorry to hear of your issues. Have you tried it directly connected to an Android phone with NOLOTetris? Have you paired the base and controllers?

    Have you contacted support@lyrobotix.com to see if its a hardware defect?
  • They accidentally sent me 2.

    So I know for a fact its not a hardware defect.

    I didnt buy this product to play tetris on mobile. I already have what i need without it to play tetris.

    You seem to be in cahoots with whoever is running this scam and I plan to keep posting after you so people see the real truth.

    untill the scammers ban me of course.

    good day, sir.
  • Hahaha cahoots, I have nothing to do with the  NOLO company besides being a big fan of what they're trying to do
  • well people will figure it out sooner or later, good day sir. enjoy your future of having nothing
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